Tantra Vrs. Celibacy
Pathways to Enlightenment
<_NYKE_> Hi Gina!
<^gina^> sorry I appear to be late I forgot about day light saving ... clocks went back an hour  <Reiki2u> hello gina <susanrose>  Gina, our host is from New Zealand.  She is an author, Teacher and former Buddhist nun.  As a formerly  celibate nun, and now married at present, I thought she would be an excellent person to lead  This topic. Let's all say where we are from  tonight and give Gina a chance to catch her breath! I am in Pittsburgh PA, USA <Reiki2u> St. Louis <MrFixIt> Windsor, Ontario <Joyful> Hubert NC <Alita> Orlando, FL, <_NYKE_> Buenos Aires Argentina <goanna{> I am in Adelaide south Australia <oldgold> Salt Lake City <reality_> Oklahoma City, OK <avirtue> near Niagara falls, NY, USA <^Dove^> Newport News, VA, USA <Jackie> Boulder Colorado USA <Norma> Buenos Aires Argentina <joeyem> Cleveland Ohio,  and here for the first time <susanrose> Thank you everyone... let's proceed with Gina's Topic tonight... "Tantra Vrs. Celibacy, Pathways to Enlightenment"  <^gina^> welcome everyone The word Tantra literally means rule of ritual. There are certain mystical and magical works,  who worship the female power, Shaki, Devi or  Durga and Kali, Shiva's wife. This female energy is also known as Kundalini.  This energy is often seen and used as purely  sexual and not in it's true form.  True form is the transformation of the physical  human mind into a Cosmic mind,  the bringer of great inner peace. A story I once heard in relation  to this pure energy is a great example. Once there was a Tibetan Lama who practiced  meditation and was thought of, as being highly realized.   He was often silent and inward looking.  Other monks held him up as an example of what  long hard hours of meditation could do in one lifetime. One day the Lama called for a wisdom woman.   (These women are trained from a young age  in all the sexual moves of Tantra.)   When the other monks heard that the Lama  wanted a wisdom woman they talked amidst  themselves, saying that maybe they had it wrong.   Maybe he was not as realized as everyone thought.  He was envied by all.  The monks were all gathered one morning  in the courtyard of the Gompa (temple).   A young monk looking skywards spied the Lama  on the roof where he stood in silence  looking down upon the monks.   Calmly he lifted his robes and urinated  down upon the heads of the group below. However, before the urine touched any heads  he then drew it back up into himself. By this act he showed that he had used  the wisdom woman to learn to draw  the essence high up into him self. The first part of the discussion is; how did this monk achieve the act of  drawing his body fluids back within himself? Today in the West we are seeing many  different eastern religions bring their beliefs  and actions into our everyday world.   ^^tj^ Was the Lama seeking wisdom,  or just having fun with Wisdom Woman? <gina>Tantra has often been seen as a sex orgy  rather than a dance with the Universal energy.  The Kama Sutra is a fine example. The Tantric practice using a partner  can be beneficial to both parties, however,  let us look at what can also take place  if one partner is unaware. There is a belief with some of the different  Tantric orders that the energy can be transferred  through your breath as well  as through emitting your life force in orgasm.       however they enter an altered state  and the sexual act can continue for hours without  ejaculation to answer that question tj the Lama could not have drawn his body fluids  back into himself if he had not reached  a very high state of consciousness I once was speaking with a Sikh  who passed these kind words onto me.   You don't cut your wrist to bleed to death.  And that one-drop of seaman was equal  to 500 drops of blood.   In essence he was saying sex is fine,  in moderation, however, the more you retain  your seed the greater the realization you will obtain. This could be a problem if you are married.   People ask me if one should stop their  sexual activity while meditating or  practicing some form of Tantra.  I feel that one needs to conserve their energy,  however, there is no need to stop relationships.  If you are already in a good relationship  and you feel able to discuss your needs  with your partner, then you could  have the bases of a Tantric relationship. I spent many years meditating without a partner.   My Kundalini awakened and the energy was very strong.   Over the years since the awakening  I have experienced further rises of energy  and body temperature. Some five years after  the initial awakening I meet my husband.   People seemed to think that I was not so  enlightened as I had found a man. I can tell you that I had to really  look at all the beliefs systems before  I consented to start the relationship.   We actually spent the first year together  without a sexual relationship.   Being a healer from birth and using the  energy to help other people has always  been my first and foremost consideration. <Alita> Why is everything so focused  on the male ejaculation process? <^gina^> because in the old systems  men were taught that only they held the seed of life in actual fact we all hold the essence of  life within ourselves <Alita> Odd that they were taught  they had the seeds of life  when all life springs from women??? <^gina^> in the old system only men  could have evolved women were told to practice and  hope for a male body in the next life time <Alita> The men were taught a myth  as the female body is superior in every respect... Especially the fact that their reproductive organs  are encased in a bony pelvis. <avirtue> You are saying a tantric sexual act ...is a means in seeking higher consciousness? <^gina^> yes avirtue  <avirtue> ok..as this is happening to me and I had no idea what was going on ooh well now finding a balance..but last week  my hubby and I seem to b in a tantric sync  we didn't have to have an orgasm <^gina^> I feel that when a woman response  to a male it excites him to much and that  can make him waste his seed early <avirtue> our experience ..we felt closer".. <^gina^> it has always been taught that women  were not really of use to the planet <MrFixIt> geesh <^gina^> I know there are a lot who can say differently Today we know that women are changing  their consciousness as fast...if not faster than males there is an understanding that the female aspect  was nearly removed from Christianity and the bible <Alita> Could it be that women are actually  the holders of the consciousness and males  are here merely for the experience of learning  from the females? <^gina^> this has now shown the Fathers  that there is a large imbalance <^gina^> Alita I believe that all are capable of consciousness it depends on how much time and energy  we put into spiritual growth <goanna> male and female are two equal halves  of a single mystery <^gina^> The Universal Principle Kundalini  or whatever other name you wish to use  is an intelligent principle and  knows what to do. It does not need us to direct it.    We can benefit from the purity and subtleties  that play within us while the energy  is changing and growing.   I would also like to point out that there  will be a time when the physical body  will lose all its consciousness. Someone once said that we can  not serve two Masters.  We can either be  governed by the physical body,  or give up the fight and allow the Soul  to do all the directing in our life.   This does not mean that you do not display any  physical characteristics.  <MrFixIt> mm...sounds like dead <^gina^> nope mr fixit <Jackie> explain losing consciousness? <^gina^> Your physical ego has been  attained through life times of hardship  pain and sorrow.  There are also the joyous  and quiet life times lived without a lot of trauma.   All goes into making us what we appear  in the world to be today. Losing the body consciousness does have  some advantages,  one being endless energy.  The disadvantage is not knowing  when the body is not functioning correctly  until you need hospitalization.  You will not need to concern yourself  when this occurs as all is taken care  of in the world for you.   I feel that if you try to turn away  from your natural instincts and urges  you will only put more energy into the  lack rather than getting on with your  spiritual growth.   For some the path should be walked with a partner,  while others will walk through life alone. <oldgold> and that can change. <^gina^> did that explain it for you jackie??? <Jackie> we will lose all physicality  eventually is what you meant, gina? <^gina^> you can still function  in the physical world you function as a spiritual person  rather than being very physical in your out look The human body id given to us  to allow us to experience emotions to experience pain love happiness and all the other parts  of our nature that help us to grow I also feel very strongly that  we are each placed in the right place  at the right time for whatever  level of transformation to take place. Inner peace is worth more than wealth  and other ego sustaining conditions. Giving your energy freely will open  you to receiving an abundance of energy. Energy can be taken from a person through sex  leaving the partner like a rag doll. Inner peace is worth more than wealth  and other ego sustaining conditions. <goanna{> We are already timeless spirits.  that is our reality but for some reason we find it needful  to have mortal bodies for a time shouldn't we concentrate on that? <Susanrose. Yes, We are spirits learning how to be human, but that may or may not include a physical expression of our sexuality. <susanrose> I can feel stuck with  other's energy even if the relationship  does not work out.   It takes me a long time to sort out the energy <^gina^> often you can find certain men use women  sexually to obtain the energy <oldgold> You know when the energy is right. <^gina^> I feel integrity is a must in relationships we must remember that energy is endless  and not just restricted to the physical level <susanrose> frankly, I don't think I could  have a tantra partner without falling in love...  that feeling of sharing heaven would be too bonding...  <avirtue> true :) <^gina^> I agree with you susanrose <avirtue> so I guess since I do healings.. living a spiritual life.. that my awakening to tantric energy just happened <^gina^> Its really important that people  approach sex with the right mind set yes it would avirtue Also, it would continue  to awaken you on higher levels of  consciousness as you take the levels  aboard and use them I think that the energy has endless  levels for us to tap <avirtue> when on is engaged in tantric sex.. and your Kundalini super wakens up... what shall one do??..I heard it can be dangerous  if u don't know how to move the Kundalini energy <^gina^> avirtue nothing is dangerous about  Kundalini other than your own fear <avirtue> ah ok..actually my hubby had this concerned :) <^gina^> when you use the energy it brings  in more at higher states of consciousness then it changes your reality I think using the energy for sending healing to  Others is a great way to keep the balance <oldgold> At what point in abstinence  does the higher state set in?   After a week or so,   or is this a long term commitment? <^gina^> oldgold a week or two would not  make much difference <Pahana> I don't think its the level of abstinence  so much as the degree to which you're able to transform  and use the energies you already have <^gina^> right pahana I found that when my energy was absolutely balance  that I attracted both male and females to me I was not consciously putting it out into the world they were drawn to the energy <Pahana> hmmm... that would have been disconcerting :) <Sanna> if you are attracted to the person,  it shouldn't matter what gender the body is. <Jackie> does frustrating sex stifle spiritual growth? <^gina^> no jackie....but it can make  your thoughts go in different directions Frustrated with your partner?... then do something about it make it the way you want it to be celibacy does not help one become enlightened it actually pushes sex to the  front of the thought process <susanrose>  Although am NOT choosing to be celibate,  I think it possible to be in a very exalted  enlightened state without thinking about sex I used to put too much  value into tantra until one day God told me ...  you want orgasms... let's give her orgasms...  how many do you want? as many as the flowers  in the fields or as many as blades of grass  in the lawn? let's give her what she wants...  then I realized that god's joke on me  was that the energy was all abundant and omnipresent....  and that the ecstasy was  in the bliss of the moment of now... this is when it occurred to me that celibacy  and tantra could be one in the same...  if you follow that the wonder  of the moment is the real goal of both... <joeyem> If you're single, and looking,  it forces you to define yourself,  therefore growth, and better ability  to find that person in your life. The more desire, sexually,  I have, the more spiritual I've become  That person is out there... <Reiki2u> I am single and NOT looking... since becoming spiritually aware,  I do not have a sexual desire... are you saying that this is unhealthy? <^gina^> not at all reiki2 I think that its important that each person  does what is comfortable for them <Reiki2u> I am not saying my "normal"  is not for everyone,  I am just saying that is how I feel  today and that is okay  :) <susanrose> I think one can be a bride to amazement ...  <joeyem> Bride to amazement? <susanrose>  "When it's over  I want to say all my life  I was a bride married to amazement." Poet, Mary Oliver wrote that. Sometimes I get into some bliss highs  that are better than sex. Think of times you were blissed out to the max. <oldgold> for me, it's through music. <joeyem> Having desire is normal,  not having it is not If I lose desire it would be awful  <Reiki2u> I disagree my normal is not your normal. <Pahana> joeyem... the same energy used in desire  can be sublimated by alchemy into spiritual  energy or creativity...  that's the whole idea of tantra <oldgold> circumstances alter my states of desire  <goanna> well does the human body have cycles,  so desire rises and falls  <susanrose> joey... I am feel desire,  but there are times that one can springboard  past physical desire... it is not that desire  is lost but just a pale version of  a ecstasy that is so much more fulfilling and pleasurable. Some religions have sold us what I believe to Be a falsehood.  That is that denial of the Pleasures of flesh is what you need to be spiritual. But they leave off the explanation that the  Union with spirit can be like a cosmic Orgasm that is about 100 times more pleasurable Than what can be experienced by your 5 senses alone. While in this consciousness even eating an orange  is an incredibly loving and sensual act. <^gina^> Blissed out through meditation susanrose? <susanrose> well, it is not through discipline, but more like expanding the spirit of joy. ... music can help... sometimes I would sing  on the way to work.. and then I would feel so at one with life that I start blessing  light posts and fire hydrants,  cracks in the sidewalk, litter, just everything in my line of vision looked so wonderful... The feeling was like being at the last game  Of the world series and having your team hit The winning run on the final pitch. <avirtue> :):) Jackie grins <oldgold> I'd like an hour on your high, SR  <susanrose> I am not there all the time, but I seem to have enough practice at it to be able to Get back into that pleasurable state when I set myself into that groove. I know it sounds like bipolar psychosis, but I really did go about the practical  activities of life at the same time. Think about the incredible amount of wasted Energy and creativity when your head space is taken up with the ups and downs of a  relationship that is coming or going. It is an incredible roller coaster ride that can Distracts your attention span and drain you. No wonder it makes you feel tired. When I can connect with this pleasurable State of universal energy, creativity, productivity increases, and I have so  much energy I am Not tired at all. The following is a quote from the book The Woman of Wyrrd, by Lynn Andrews. It is a dialog between a sexy yet physically celibate magician who is explaining the benefits of his life style to the romantic heroine. "Can you imagine having that orgasmic feeling  throughout a great part of your life,  not just for a moment? ... That is how I live my life.    If you were to feel  such a feeling for days on end, Catherine,  would you want to  give it up for an earthly love? I thought about what he was saying.   No, I would not Charles.  I cannot imagine how wonderful it would be if I had that kind of energy and possibility  In my being...  Think of all the healing you could do, perhaps all of England. Perhaps Catherine, you really understand   I hope you truly understand this is not a trick.   I felt that I must come to you  and share this gift with you so  that you would understand that  it is something that you can find in your life.  You can attain what I have attained,.  Anyone can. ...If you take an earthly husband,  you cannot reach these heights, because you  will need to use your energy and attention  for earthly endeavors. You can still do great things, however.   Perhaps this is not your path It is only for you to know." <Susanrose> Well folks, my plan is to NOT choose between Celibacy and Relationship. I guess I want it all. I am without a relationship until I can find a compatible partner, who can surf the wave a bliss with me. Skilled enough to help keep both Of us from "Wiping out", and drowning in a sea of emotions and dependence. Someone who can go to the bliss place and share it with me while I have taken myself there too. Someone who can romantically be **in love** yet permitting enough space or both of us  to reach our highest creative  potential. *Note: In anyone reading this later has been successful at maintaining such a relationship, please e-mail me and I will edit your comments into this log. ***Note: the following was added post meeting:

JESHUA through JUDITH COATES from Jeshua Talks About Sex QUESTION = Jeshua, what about sex? Is it like a life force? I was trying to understand it in a broader sense. The expression of sex upon this plane is to be seen as part of the process of remembering the wholeness that you are, the Love that you are. For as two are joined in the feeling of expressing love in a physical way, there can be an extension of the Love that you are unto the other one. And as one experiences the ecstasy of the physical orgasm, it is upon this plane an experience that would be as the tip of the iceberg as to the energy that you are in totality: the energy of unlimitedness, of blending into the total Self of the energy that is so expressive that it goes beyond what the mind can comprehend. The act of sharing the physical feeling of what is termed sex upon this plane is one that serves in the process of remembrance for it allows two seeming individuals to come together and to share the feeling of the emotion of love. The act is not always shared in an atmosphere of love, but in its best form there is the expression of love, the selfless love, for you would give unto the other the very energy that you are, and yet, you cannot give it away for you are the other as well; there is no separation. And in the very act of the sexual union at what has been termed the climax, the very highest point, there is symbolized the unlimitedness of the energy that you are as it can be experienced upon this plane. Many get caught into the feeling of the physicality of it and want to re-experience that over and over and over, forgetting that it is as a messenger that would show unto you how much more you are. It is a calling forth from a very deep level of the remembrance of the energy that you are. And in the act itself, there is a moment of remembering that there is much more. This is why it is so desired to re-experience it over and over and over. And yet, it is to know that that energy can be felt and experienced and connected with in a oneness that you are not only through the sexual act but through the very experience of the oneness that you are. It need not come through the sexual union. This is one way. This is the way that mankind has found it most accessible, but it can be experienced in other ways as well, and as one is broadening the horizon of experience, one finds that there are other moments where the ecstasy will be felt and yet there has not been the juxtaposition of the two bodies. (This was added to the log, for more info about Jeshua, see http://home.earthlink.net/~jjeshua/.) <Jackie> thank you gina... very interesting session. <^gina^> I hope this has talk has helped in some way <avirtue> thank u so much gina!! :):) <goanna{> good nite all <Reiki2u> yes, thank you gina... I have much to think about!  :) <Pahana> *shrug* gave me a chance to attend for  part of the session anyway.   I haven't been here in ages <oldgold> Thanks Gina and Susanrose.  Good night. <^gina^> nite oldgold nite all <^Witelite> g'night Susan.. <avirtue> it has been quite helpful  thanks {susanrose} light love joys! :)